What is the role of the Holy Spirit in the eternal New Covenant age? Does the Holy Spirit still perform his charism-based ministries in the Church? Are all charisms of the Spirit capable of functioning today? In January/February of 2003, a brotherly debate was hosted by the moderator of the Covenant Eschatology Yahoo Group to address these questions and more. That dialogue between the editors of Preterist Cosmos and Preteristvision is now published here in its entirety.

(Editor's Note: The most current reply is always in black ink. Prior quoting indicated with the (>>) key and colored text)

1/15/03 - [Green to PV]

I just read some of your messages over at Planet Preterist and I thought I would let you know where I agree and disagree with you, just so you can better know what to expect when we "discuss."

I agree that, "the ministry of the Holy Spirit is based in Christ's own glorification and for the citizens of New Jerusalem," and that, "the Holy Spirit's ministry is central to the New Covenant."

I agree that, "the 'age to come' is an age fully based in the existence of Christ's Body indwelt by the Holy Spirit." I would not say though that the New Covenant age is, "based in the primacy of the Holy Spirit."

I agree that, "perfection" is the end-goal (or goals) of sanctification whereby newborn Christians grow from a state of immaturity unto maturity in love, holiness and obedience." I agree that, "this process is performed in us by the Holy Spirit."

I don't hold to the "eschatological perfect" interpretation of I Cor. 13 which you refuted. I don't see the "perfect" there as merely a positional or mystical or covenantal perfection in A.D. 70 that was unrelated to the existential maturity of the Church.

I also don't hold to the cessation of miracles. If I did, I would have to say that God, "is able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all that we ask or think," Yikes! but He chooses not to do so in the New Covenant age! Talk to you later, Brother.

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1/15/03 - [PV's Response to Green]

Hi Dave. We seem to be starting off with much common ground.

Let me restate your points of agreement and disagreement here with my comments:

(1) You aren't denying sanctification (but do you believe the nature/experience of the sanctification process has changed?). You said you do agree with me that "perfection" is the end goal--or goals--of sanctification whereby newborn Christians grow from a state of immaturity unto maturity in love, holiness and obedience, and you agree this process is performed in us by the Holy Spirit. (But somewhere you may disagree with the NT ways and means of perfection of saints as listed in Eph 4:8,11-12/Rom 12:1-2,6-9/1 Cor 12:28-30/1 Peter 4:10-11?)

(2) You don't deny that the Church is Christ's body filled with the Holy Spirit (yet perhaps filled with a "non-manifesting" Holy Spirit?).

(3) You don't seem to deny either that "receiving the Holy Spirit" listed in John 7:37-39 is for the citizens of New Jerusalem (cf John 7:37-39 to Rev 22:1,17). Very good. Of course, the "receiving the Spirit" that was available to the saints due to the glorification of Christ listed in John 7:37-39 has experiential, charism-based meaning in the NT (to see the gifts/charism-based meaning, compare Jn 7:39 to Eph 4:8,11/Rom 12:6-9/1 Cor 12:28-30. Compare also "receiving the Holy Spirit" of Jn 7:39 to Jn 14:17; Acts 1:8, 2:33, 2:38, 8:15, 10:44-47, Acts 19:2; 1 Cor 2:12; 2 Cor 11:4; Gal 3:2,14). The Holy Spirit's New Covenant ministry is charism-based, and largely experiential and fruitbearing. All the Church's workings/ministries are based upon the existence of these charisms of the Holy Spirit in the Church (see lists of charisms: Rom 12:6-9/1 Cor 12:28-30/Eph 4:11-12).

(4) Glad you agree that the Holy Spirit's ministry is central to the New Covenant kingdom (2 Cor 3:6-9; 1 Cor 4:20/2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; Romans 8:1,9,14; 1 Corinthians 3:16), central to the kingdom "age to come" (Matthew 12:31-32/Hebrews 6:4-6/1 Cor 4:20/2:4). This has miraculous implications, of course, as we see in those verses.

(5) You do disagree with my contention that the our age is based on a primacy of the Holy Spirit. My reasoning for this is based on the greatest sin (see Matt 12:31-32 tied to Heb 6:4-5 and 1 Cor 4:20/2:4). The only sin that won't be forgiven of men is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (blasphemy against Jesus may be forgiven). Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the greatest of all sins known to man. This is a primacy.

(6) I don't know what your view of 1 Cor 13 is. Guess we'll get to that.

(7) Glad you don't believe all miracles have ceased, yet you curiously cited that Eph 3:20 is for today, which mentions the "dunamis (power) working in the saints." Any continuationist worth his salt knows that the "power ("dunamis") working in the first century saints" of Eph 3:20 is the miraculous "dunamis" of the Holy Ghost just mentioned in 3:16, 3:7, and Eph 1:19-21 (also parallel to Heb 6:4-5, 1 Cor 2:4/4:20, Luke 24:49/Acts 1:8). Your brother,

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1/16/03 - [Green's Response to PV]

>>[PV] Do you believe the nature/experience of the sanctification process has changed?

[Green] Yes, our "experience" in sanctification is not exactly the same as that of the last-days Church. The last-days Church was being sanctified in a thoroughly unique era and for a thoroughly unique goal: That it might emerge from out of the "revelatory" age in which God spoke in the prophets, (Heb. 1:1-2) and might become the Temple of God (Eph. 2:21) in the impending world of fulfillment. Neither of those conditions are applicable to our sanctification-"experience" today.

......

>>[PV] But somewhere you may disagree with the NT ways and means of perfection of saints as listed in Eph 4:8,11-12/Rom 12:1-2,6-9/1 Cor 12:28-30/1 Peter 4:10-11?]

[Green] "Disagree?" No. When a house (the New Covenant Temple / the Church) is being built, a builder may spend years building it (A.D. 30-70). Then when his house is finished, (A.D. 70) he ends the construction process and dwells in his house, and he continues to care for it. That doesn't mean that while he dwells in his finished house, no longer constructing it, that I would then "disagree" with the unique way he treated the house while it was under construction.

......

>>[PV] You don't deny that the Church is Christ's body filled with the Holy Spirit (yet perhaps filled with a "non-manifesting" Holy Spirit?).

[Green] "Non-manifesting?" No. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another" (Jn. 13:35). I don't deny the last-days revelations. Yet the "manifestations" that "remain," in contrast to the last-days revelations, are "faith, hope and love." (I Cor. 13:13)

......

>>[PV] ....Of course, the "receiving the Spirit" that was available to the saints due to the glorification of Christ listed in John 7:37-39 has experiential, charism-based meaning in the NT (to see the gifts/charism-based meaning, compare Jn 7:39 to Eph 4:8,11/Rom 12:6-9/1 Cor 12:28-30. Compare also "receiving the Holy Spirit" of Jn 7:39 to Jn 14:17; Acts 1:8, 2:33, 2:38, 8:15, 10:44-47, Acts 19:2; 1 Cor 2:12; 2 Cor 11:4; Gal 3:2,14).

[Green] I agree.

......

>>[PV] The Holy Spirit's New Covenant ministry is charism-based, and largely experiential and fruitbearing.

[Green] I agree.

......

>>[PV] ALL the Church's workings/ministries are based upon the existence of these charisms of the Holy Spirit in the Church (see lists of charisms: Rom 12:6-9/1 Cor 12:28-30/Eph 4:11-12).

[Green] I agree.

......

>>[PV] Glad you agree that the Holy Spirit's ministry is central to the New Covenant kingdom (2 Cor 3:6-9; 1 Cor 4:20/2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; Romans 8:1,9,14; 1 Corinthians 3:16), central to the kingdom "age to come" (Matthew 12:31-32/Hebrews 6:4-6/1 Cor 4:20/2:4). This has miraculous implications, of course, as we see in those verses.

[Green] I agree.

......

>>[PV] You do disagree with my contention that the our age is based on a primacy of the Holy Spirit. My reasoning for this is based on the greatest sin (Matt 12:31-32 tied to Heb 6:4-5 and 1 Cor 4:20/2:4). The only sin that won't be forgiven of men is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (blasphemy against Jesus may be forgiven). Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the greatest of all sins known to man. This is a primacy.

[Green] In my humble understanding, Jesus' words in Matt. 12:31-32 meant that anyone who blasphemed the One Who was performing the great mass of wonders (in Jesus, and later in the eschatological Church), and who blasphemed the One Who would soon be dispensing the holy New Covenant in Christ's blood, would never be forgiven (Matt. 11:21; Heb. 10:29). The "unforgivableness" was not because of the "primacy" of the Holy Spirit, but because of the irrefutable testimony of His outpouring of signs and wonders, and because of the holiness of the blood of the covenant that He was dispensing in Christ's absence in the Last Days. The "primacy" in the New Covenant Age belongs to the Father (I Cor. 15:24,28).

......

>>[PV] I don't know what your view of 1 Cor 13 is. Guess we'll get to that.

[Green] My view of I Cor. 13: Prophecies would be "done away." Tongues would "cease." Knowledge (of the revelatory variety) would be "done away" (I Cor. 13:8). Those things were all "in part" (I Cor. 13:9), "childish," (I Cor. 13:11), a dim "mirror" (I Cor. 13:12). Those things would all be "done away" when the perfect thing / mature Man came (I Cor. 13:10). At that time, believers would know God fully and see Him "face to Face" (I Cor. 13:12). The "perfect thing" was the last-days Church, consummately and *experientially* sanctified in A.D. 70, established in faith, hope and love (I Cor. 13:13).

Does this mean that I personally am experientially "perfected in love" today? No. It means that the last-days Church was experientially "perfected in love" in A.D. 70, thereby establishing the historic Church as the Temple of God, and consummating the New Covenant Age -- the age in which all the saints are called and enabled to grow in the love of the indwelling Christ, no longer with the "childish," "partial" and dim "manifestations" of prophecy, tongues and knowledge.

......

>>[PV] Glad you don't believe all miracles have ceased, yet you curiously cited that Eph 3:20 is for today, which mentions the "dunamis (power) working in the saints." Any continuationist worth his salt knows that the "power ("dunamis") working in the first century saints" of Eph 3:20 is the miraculous "dunamis" of the Holy Ghost just mentioned in 3:16, 3:7, and Eph 1:19-21 (also parallel to Heb 6:4-5, 1 Cor 2:4/4:20, Luke 24:49/Acts 1:8).

[Green] I'm not sure of the problem there. I admit that miracles have not ceased. Why is it curious that I would cite Eph. 3:20? YB, Dave

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1/16/03 [PV's Response to Green]

>>[PV] do you believe the nature/experience of the sanctification process has changed?

>[Green] Yes, our "experience" in sanctification is not exactly the same as that of the last-days Church. The last-days Church was being sanctified in a thoroughly unique era and for a thoroughly unique goal: That it might emerge from out of the "revelatory" age in which God spoke in the prophets, (Heb. 1:1-2) and might become the Temple of God (Eph. 2:21) in the impending world of fulfillment. Neither of those conditions are applicable to our sanctification-"experience" today.

[PV] Dave, I see an assertion here, but no scriptural support. Where does scripture teach that the means of sanctification of believers under the New Covenant was to ever change operation? Where does scripture teach that the sanctification of the New Covenant believers of AD 30-70 is not the same sanctification of New Covenant believers after AD 70? Scripture simply doesn't teach this.

Aside from the fact that no scripture anywhere teaches the extinction of the charismatic workings/manifestations of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant, the cessationist dilemma is evident:

(1) Since sanctification is the process whereby "babes" in the faith (Heb 5:12-6:1; 1 Peter 2:1-2; Eph 4:14; 1 Cor 3:1-3; 1 Cor 13:11; 1 Jn 2:13; Rom 2:20) are brought to mature "manhood"/"perfection" in love, holiness and obedience (Heb 5:12-6:1/13:21; 1 Jn 2:5/4:11-12,18; 2 Cor Eph 4:14-15/4:11-12; 1 Cor 13:11/14:20; 2 Cor 7:1/13:9,11; Lk 6:40; Mt 5:48; Rom 12:2,6-9; Col 4:12; 2 Tim 3:17; James 1:4/3:2; 1 Thess 3:10-11/4:3-9) ...and since... the bible plainly teaches that this perfection of saints under the New Covenant is the miraculous work/ministry of the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:3; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thess 2:13; 1 Cor 6:9-11; 1 Thess 4:3-9; 2 Cor 3:3,6-11,17-18; Titus 3:5; Heb 10:29; Rom 15:16) by means of the Holy Spirit's charisms listed in Eph 4:8,11-12/Rom 12:2,6-9/1 Cor 12:28-31/12:1-13/1 Pet 4:8-11, then the cessation of the Holy Spirit's charismatic ministry is nothing less than the cessation of the sanctification of human beings from immaturity unto holiness, obedience, and love. This spells doom for mankind, locking all men into perpetual unholiness, perpetual disobedience, perpetual infancy of understanding and belief, perpetual lack of love, perpetual schism, and perpetual sin. I won't even go into the link between sanctification and justification.

(2) Since the Church's whole functioning is based upon the Holy Spirit's workings, and since those workings are charismatic by nature and for the purpose of sanctification/edification (with the list of the Sprit's charisms found in Eph 4:8,11-12/1 Cor 12:27-31/Rom 12:2,4-9/1 Pet 4:8-11), then the cessation of the charisms is the cessation of the Church's entire sum of functioning. List of functioning members of the body/charismata as found in scripture includes the following:

SPIRIT ENDOWED MEMBERS/CHARISMS (from Eph 4:8,11-12/1 Cor 12:27-31/Rom 12:2,4-9/1 Pet 4:8-11)

* Mercy/Compassion (Rom 12:8) * Diversities of Tongues (1 Cor 12:10,28,30; 14:2-4,39; Acts 19:6; Mk 16:17) * Interpretation of Tongues (1 Cor 12:10,30/14:13,27-28) * Church Government (1 Cor 12:28) * Pastor (Eph 4:11) * Charitable Giving (Rom 12:8) * Teacher (Rom 12:7/James 3:2/Eph 4:11/Heb 5:12-14/1 Cor 12:28;Acts 13:1) * Gifts for healing (1 Cor 12:9,28,30) * Hospitality (1 Peter 4:9-10/Rom 12:13) * Discerning of Spirits (1 Cor 12:10/1 Jn 4:1/1 Thess 5:19-21) * Exhortation (Rom 12:8/1 Cor 14:3) * Works of power/miracles (1 Cor 12:10,28-29) * Rule/Overseeing (Rom 12:8/1 Tim 5:17/1 Thess 5:12/1 Tim 3:5) * Faith (1 Cor 12:9) * Word of Wisdom (1 Cor 12:8) * Word of Knowledge (1 Cor 12:8) * Apostleship (1 Cor 12:28-29/Eph 4:8,11) * Ministry (1 Pet 4:10-11/Rom 12:7/Eph 3:7,4:12/2 Cor 4:1/1 Cor 16:15/Col 4:17/1 Timothy 1:12/2 Tim 4:5) * Prophesying (Rom 12:6/1 Pet 4:10-11/1 Cor 12:10,28; 14:5,31,39/Eph 4:11/Acts 21:9,13:1,19:6; 1 Thess 5:19-21) * Evangelist (Eph 4:11/2 Tim 4:5/Acts 21:8)

If these have ceased, the Church has ceased and the Holy Spirit's New Covenant ministry is gone. Cessationist teaching calls for nothing less than the cessation of the Church's entire ministry and functioning. To remove these charisms of the Spirit is to remove the Church of Jesus Christ by dismemberment and removal of the Holy Spirit.

......

>>[PV] (But somewhere you may disagree with the NT ways and means of perfection of saints as listed in Eph 4:8,11-12/Rom 12:1-2,6-9/ 1 Cor 12:28-30/1 Peter 4:10-11?)

>[Green] "Disagree?" No. When a house (the New Covenant Temple / the Church) is being built, a builder may spend years building it. (A.D. 30-70) Then when his house is finished, (A.D. 70) he ends the construction process and dwells in his house, and he continues to care for it. That doesn't mean that while he dwells in his finished house, no longer constructing it, that I would then "disagree" with the unique way he treated the house while it was under construction.

[PV] You are presupposing that sanctification/ministries of the Spirit in the Church were only designed to bring the Church to AD 70 and then cease. Scripture does not say this. Also, when the Church itself, by its nature, consists of various functions and members that have long since gone extinct, there is no Church left of which to speak. It is a unicorn, a mythical creature (or at least a dinosaur). The Church is either Spirit filled as in AD 30-70 or it is extinct.

......

>>[PV] You don't deny that the Church is Christ's body filled with the Holy Spirit (yet perhaps filled with a "non-manifesting" Holy Spirit?).

>[Green] "Non-manifesting?" No. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another" (Jn. 13:35). I don't deny the last-days revelations. Yet the "manifestations" that "remain," in contrast to the last-days revelations, are "faith, hope and love." (I Cor. 13:13)

[PV] Scripture does not say the charismatic manifestations were to go extinct. Furthermore, as I have shown above, they are all one class together and they empower the Church--role, function, and member. If they are gone the Church is gone (at least, the Church that the first disciples could have recognized).

......

>>[PV] ...Of course, the "receiving the Spirit" that was available to the saints >due to the glorification of Christ listed in John 7:37-39 has experiential, charism-based meaning in the NT (to see the gifts/charism-based meaning, compare Jn 7:39 -TO- Eph 4:8,11/Rom 12:6-9/1 Cor 12:28-30. Compare also "receiving the Holy Spirit" of Jn 7:39 -TO- Jn 14:17; Acts 1:8, 2:33, 2:38, 8:15, 10:44-47, Acts 19:2; 1 Cor 2:12; 2 Cor 11:4; Gal 3:2,14).

>[Green] I agree.

[PV] But you don't agree the receiving of the Spirit is still experiential or charism-based as was meant in those verses. "Receiving the Spirit" was experiential and charism-based. I think you believe this experience has ceased. Does anyone "receive the Spirit" today in your view? If "yes," please cite scripture that teaches that "receiving the Spirit" would not be experiential/charism-based after AD 70. I assert that no such scripture teaches this.

......

>>[PV] The Holy Spirit's New Covenant ministry is charism-based, and largely experiential and fruitbearing.

>[Green] I agree.

[PV] What experiences and fruits would you point to in today's New Covenant Ministry of the Holy Spirit that compare to the ones taught and expressed in the New Covenant? Would the first century believers recognize your list of modern experiences of the Holy Spirit?

......

>>[PV] ALL the Church's workings/ministries are based upon the existence of these charisms of the Holy Spirit in the Church (see lists of charisms: Rom 12:6-9/1 Cor 12:28-30/Eph 4:11-12).

>[Green] I agree.

[PV] But, you claim those charisms of the Spirit listed in those verses have ceased, right? Therefore you must teach that all the Church's workings/ministries have ceased.

......

>>[PV] Glad you agree that the Holy Spirit's ministry is central to the New Covenant kingdom (2 Cor 3:6-9; 1 Cor 4:20/2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; Romans 8:1,9,14; 1 Corinthians 3:16), central to the kingdom "age to come" (Matthew 12:31-32/Hebrews 6:4-6/1 Cor 4:20/2:4). This has miraculous implications, of course, as we see in those verses.

>[Green] I agree.

[PV] But you cannot agree. The sum total of the Church's role and functioning is related to the Holy Spirit's New Covenant charisms. If the charisms have ceased, the Church's ministry is gone. The body of Christ is then extinct, done away through dismemberment. The body of Christ gave up the ghost, so to speak.

......

>>[PV] You do disagree with my contention that the our age is based on a primacy of the Holy Spirit. My reasoning for this is based on the greatest sin (Matt 12:31-32 tied to Heb 6:4-5 and 1 Cor 4:20/2:4). The only sin that won't be forgiven of men is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (blasphemy against Jesus may be forgiven). Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the greatest of all sins known to man. This is a primacy.

>[Green] In my humble understanding, Jesus' words in Matt. 12:31-32 meant that anyone who blasphemed the One Who was performing the great mass of wonders (in Jesus, and later in the eschatological Church), and who blasphemed the One Who would soon be dispensing the holy New Covenant in Christ's blood, would never be forgiven. (Matt. 11:21; Heb. 10:29)

[PV] The immediate context of Matt 12:31-32 is tied to rebuking/denying the miraculous workings of the Spirit. Thus, since this is also the greatest sin in the now present age ("the age to come" - Mt 12:31-32), then rebuking the miraculous works of the Spirit after AD 70 must still be taking place exactly as in 12:31-32 when Jesus spoke those words. This verse shows the Holy Spirit's miraculous works continue today -- no man can blaspheme a non-manifesting Holy Spirit.

......

>>[Green] The "unforgivableness" was not because of the "primacy" of the Holy Spirit, but because of the irrefutable testimony of His outpouring of signs and wonders, and because of the holiness of the blood of the covenant that He was dispensing in Christ's absence in the Last Days. The "primacy" in the New Covenant Age belongs to the Father. (I Cor. 15:24,28)

[PV] I won't take this into trinitarian waters, but the greatest sin is to blaspheme the miraculous works of the Spirit in the present age (Mt 12:31-32/Heb 6:4-5). This is a primacy. Also, 2 Cor 3:6-12 shows that the Holy Spirit has a primacy under the New Covenant. Essentially, all the Father's and Son's workings in the New Covenant Age are to be based in--and associated with--the Holy Spirit.

......

>>[PV] I don't know what your view of 1 Cor 13 is. Guess we'll get to that.

>[Green] My view of I Cor. 13: Prophecies would be "done away." Tongues would "cease." Knowledge (of the revelatory variety) would be "done away" (I Cor. 13:8). Those things were all "in part" (I Cor. 13:9), "childish," (I Cor. 13:11), a dim "mirror" (I Cor. 13:12).

[PV] The manifestations of the Holy Spirit were/are not "childish" -- they are the very ascension gifts of Christ to men (Eph 4:8,11/Jn 7:37-39). Paul was calling the Corinthians childish (1 Cor 14:20/3:1), not the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. I find this to be one of the oddest and most counter-intuitive assertions of cessationism. Yet, cessationist error in this chapter [1 Cor 13] mandates that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit were "childish" and a "dim mirror." My commentary on 1 Cor 13 is here at this link.

......

>>[Green] Those things would all be "done away" when the perfect thing / mature Man came (I Cor. 13:10). At that time, believers would know God fully and see Him "face to Face" (I Cor. 13:12). The "perfect thing" was the last-days Church, consummately and *experientially* sanctified in A.D. 70, established in faith, hope and love (I Cor. 13:13).

[PV] "That which is perfect" is the maturity commanded of believers under Christ (Mt 5:48; Mt 19:20-21/1Thess 3:10/James 1:4), both *immediately* in Corinth...

--COMPARE THIS--

(1 Corinthians 13:10-11) when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless. When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe

--TO THIS--

(1 Corinthians 14:20) Brethren, become not children in the understanding, but in the evil be ye babes, and in the understanding be ye perfect

--AND THIS--

(2 Corinthians 13:9,11) ...and this also we wish, [even] your perfection...Become perfect

...and also for all believers under the New Covenant system:

--COMPARE THIS--

(1 Corinthians 13:4-8,10-11; 14:20) Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails... when the perfect comes, the partial [imperfect] will be done away...when I became a man, I did away with childish things...Brethren, do not be children in your thinking...in your thinking be perfect

--TO THIS--

(1 John 2:5-6,10) But whosoever keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked...He that loveth his brother abideth in the light

--AND THIS--

(1 Jn 4:8, 11-13, 18) He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love....if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another... If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit...Herein is our love made perfect...There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear...He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

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>>[Green] Does this mean that I personally am experientially "perfected in love" today? No. It means that the last-days Church was experientially "perfected in love" in A.D. 70, thereby establishing the historic Church as the Temple of God, and consummating the New Covenant Age --the age in which all the saints are called and enabled to grow in the love of the indwelling Christ, no longer with the "childish," "partial" and dim "manifestations" of prophecy, tongues and knowledge.

[PV] As I stated before, the only way to be brought to perfection in love and obedience is through the sanctifying ministry of the Holy Spirit, which was charism-based. You claim the charismata are no more, so you are either doomed to perpetual infancy, or, you are currently as filled with holiness, love, and obedience as any human ever has been or ever will be as by some magic.

......

>>[PV] Glad you don't believe all miracles have ceased, yet you curiously cited that Eph 3:20 is for today, which mentions the "dunamis (power) working in the saints." Any continuationist worth his salt knows that the "power ("dunamis") working in the first century saints" of Eph 3:20 is the miraculous "dunamis" of the Holy Ghost just mentioned in 3:16, 3:7, and Eph 1:19-21 (also parallel to Heb 6:4-5, 1 Cor 2:4/4:20, Luke 24:49/Acts 1:8).

>[Green] I'm not sure of the problem there. I admit that miracles have not ceased. > Why is it curious that I would cite Eph. 3:20?

[PV] In Ephesians 3:20, Paul speaks of some "power working in the first century saints," which is clearly the same "power" as Eph 3:7-8 (i.e., the "charism for ministry" endued upon Paul by the Holy Spirit for his mission):

--COMPARE THIS--

Ephesians 3:7 (the "power" working in Paul for his ministry) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

--TO THIS--

Romans 12:6-7 (the gifts of the Spirit for ministry and prophecy) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, on ministering

--AND TO THIS--

Ephesians 4:7-8,11 (the gifts of the Spirit for ministries) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men...he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers

Cessationists claim that these Holy Spirit-endowed ministries have ceased, precisely because the "power from on high" (Lk 24:29/Acts 1:8) that once endowed them has been retracted. Therefore, since the power working in the first century saints is no longer working (according to cessationists), then neither is Ephesians 3:20 relevant to post-AD-70 people. That "power" cannot be working in cessationists. Your brother,

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1/17/03 [Green's Response to PV]

>>[Green] The last-days Church was being sanctified in a thoroughly unique era and for a thoroughly unique goal: That it might emerge from out of the "revelatory" age in which God spoke in the prophets, (Heb. 1:1-2) and might become the Temple of God (Eph. 2:21) in the impending world of fulfillment. Neither of those conditions are applicable to our sanctification-"experience" today.

>[PV] I see an assertion here, but no scriptural support.

[Green] Heb. 1:1-2 (sited above) scripturally supports the assertion that the pre-Christ age was the revelatory age in which God "spoke in the prophets." Eph. 2:21 (sited above) scripturally supports the assertion that the last-days Church was becoming the Temple of God.

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>>[PV] Where does scripture teach that the sanctification of the New Covenant believers of AD 30-70 is not the same sanctification of New Covenant believers after AD 70?

[Green] The last-days saints were being sanctified to come out of the age of the prophets and to become the Temple of God (A.D. 30-70), and the post-70 saints are sanctified in the completed Temple of God in the New Covenant world. Do you agree?

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>>[PV] Also, when the Church itself, by its nature, consists of various functions and members that have long since gone extinct, there is no Church left of which to speak. It is a unicorn, a mythical creature (or at least a dinosaur). The Church is either Spirit filled as in AD 30-70 or it is extinct.

[Green] As you said in your Commentary on 1 Corinthians Chapter 13, "The mature believer does away with former imperfections of early development and immaturity." The Body of Christ was perfected at the Parousia. Agreed? Therefore at that time, the Body of Christ did away with "former imperfections of early development and immaturity." Agreed? What did the Church do away with at the Parousia?

The revelatory gifts were necessarily "done away" because That which those gifts had been revealing and establishing was perfectly revealed and established at the Parousia. Was it not? The inescapable change of the Church at the Parousia in no way implied the extinction of the transformed Church.

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>>[PV] Furthermore, as I have shown above, they [the charismata] are all one class together and they empower the Church--role, function, and member. If they are gone the Church is gone (at least, the Church that the first disciples could have recognized).

[Green] Paul said the Church would be "changed" at the Parousia (I Cor. 15:51-52). You seem to be saying there was no change whatsoever, and that if there was a change, it would make the Church "unrecognizable."

The disappearance of prophecies at the Appearance of He whom the prophecies spoke does not imply the disappearance of the Church that He came to indwell.

The fulfillment of all prophecy necessarily means the end of prophecy. The end of that revelatory "class, role, function, member" does not imply the end of the Church that inherited the fulfillment of all things that were prophesied.

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>>[PV] What experiences and fruits would you point to in today's New Covenant Ministry of the Holy Spirit that compare to the ones taught and expressed in the New Covenant?

[Green] Essentially, everything but the revelatory gifts, the continuation of which implied non-fulfillment, i.e., immaturity, i.e., the absence of the indwelling Christ and His Kingdom.

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>>[PV] Would the first century believers recognize your list of modern experiences of the Holy Spirit?

[Green] Yes, the saints who prophesied of the coming Kingdom would be able to recognize the "experiences" of the saints in the fulfilled Kingdom who do not prophesy.

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>>[PV] ...no man can blaspheme a non-manifesting Holy Spirit.

[Green] As I said in my last message, I don't believe in a "non-manifesting" Holy Spirit. I believe that the manifestations are no longer of the revelatory kind.

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>>[PV] The manifestations of the Holy Spirit were/are not "childish" -- they are the very ascension gifts of Christ to men (Eph 4:8,11/Jn 7:37-39). Paul was calling the Corinthians childish (1 Cor 14:20/3:1), not the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. I find this to be one of the oddest and most counter-intuitive assertions of cessationism. Yet, cessationist error in this chapter [1 Cor 13] mandates that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit were "childish" and a "dim mirror."

[Green] The revelatory gifts were "childish" because they looked forward in an immature "dimness" to what was to be realized at the Parousia: The sanctified, perfected-in-love mature Man / Body of Christ / Temple of God / City of God in the New-Covenant World. As I Cor. 13:8-12 teaches:

Prophecies were partial and were to be abolished (8-9).
Tongues were to cease (8).
Knowledge was partial and was to be abolished (8-9,12).

That is parallel to this:

Childish speech was to be abolished (11).
Childish thought was to be abolished (11).
Childish things were to be abolished (11).

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>>[PV] My commentary on 1 Cor 13 is here:

[Green] You made no comment on the cessationist portion of I Cor. 13. You made no attempt to explain the ceasing / abolition of prophecies, tongues and knowledge in verses 8-10.

You re-translated "abolished" / "done away" in verses 8-11 to "made useless," which is a dubious translation because that word is paralleled with "cease" (the ceasing of tongues in verse 8).

You also said that prophecy and knowledge were "made useless" in IMperfection. That explanation does reflect the concept of verses 1-7 (where good works are worthless without love), but it definitely is not what verses 8-12 say. Verses 8-12 say that prophecy and knowledge would be "done away" and tongues would "cease" at the coming of "the perfect thing" / the "man" / "face to Face" / full knowledge.

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>>[PV] "That which is perfect" is the maturity commanded of believers under Christ (Mt 5:48; Mt 19:20-21/1Thess 3:10/James 1:4), both *immediately* in Corinth...

[Green] I didn't mean to imply that individual believers could not be perfected in love before A.D. 70. I meant that the Church, the whole Body, the completed Temple of God, became perfected in love by A.D. 70 through the sanctification/ministry/gifts of the Holy Spirit.

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>>[PV] Cessationists claim that these Holy Spirit-endowed ministries have ceased, precisely because the "power from on high" (Lk 24:29/Acts 1:8) that once endowed them has been retracted. Therefore, since the power working in the first century saints is no longer working (according to cessationists), then neither is Ephesians 3:20 relevant to post-AD-70 people. That "power" cannot be working in cessationists.

[Green] It's not my position that the power of the Holy Spirit has been retracted, or that it is no longer working. My position is that His power is no longer manifested in the pre-fulfillment revelatory gifts.

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>>[PV] ...no scripture anywhere teaches the extinction of the charismatic workings / manifestations of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant....

[Green] I didn't say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, or sanctification, are extinct under the New Covenant. I said the revelatory gifts were done away. YB, Dave

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1/18/03 [PV's Response to Green]

>>[PV] Cessationists claim that these Holy Spirit-endowed ministries have ceased, precisely because the "power from on high" (Lk 24:29/Acts 1:8) that once endowed them has been retracted. Therefore, since the power working in the first century saints is no longer working (according to cessationists), then neither is Ephesians 3:20 relevant to post-AD-70 people. That "power" cannot be working in cessationists.

>[Green] It's not my position that the power of the Holy Spirit has been retracted, or that it is no longer working. My position is that His power is no longer manifested in the pre-fulfillment revelatory gifts.

[PV] You are arguing an inconsistent cessationist position. The full list of charisms are either here or they are all gone--there is no justification for dividing them up arbitrarily into sub-classes and assigning some as extinct and others non-extinct. The charisms are one class, the ascension gifts of Christ to His Church (Eph 4:8/Jn 7:37-39). The full list of these charisms/gifts are known from the parallel lists given in Eph 4:8,11-12; 1 Cor 12:3-11,28-30; Rom 12:2,5-9; and 1 Peter 4:8-11. You cannot arbitrarily divide them up into sub-categories as you seem to be attempting. Your position is inconsistent and inherently weak in the same way as is partial preterism.

Again, if the charisms are all extinct, then the Church's functions, roles, and members are extinct. If any are here, then all are here with us, bound within the Holy Spirit's New Covenant Age ministry. So again, I assert that your claim that Eph 3:20 is for today is self-defeating. The "power that was working in the first-century saints" was the charismatic powers of the Spirit which were being expressed in them in the full range of the gifts (cf. Eph 3:20 to Eph 3:7 to Rom 12:6-7/Eph 4:7-8,11).

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>>[PV] ...no scripture anywhere teaches the extinction of the charismatic workings / manifestations of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant...

>[Green] I didn't say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, or sanctification, are extinct under the New Covenant. I said the revelatory gifts were done away.

[PV] Same problem as above. There is no "sub-class" of the charisms known as "revelatory." The charisms are one class. Not only is there zero justification in scripture for the cessation of the charisms, but there is zero justification for "sub-classes" of the charisms of the Holy Spirit as well. You are presupposing things that you must first prove. The Holy Spirit's charisms stand or fall as one class (see list: Eph 4:8,11-12; 1 Cor 12:3-11,27-30; Rom 12:2,5-9; and 1 Peter 4:8-11). They are the Holy Spirit's New Covenant ministry. If they are gone, God the Holy Spirit is no longer at work in the Church and the Church is out of business. Fortunately, neither scripture nor Church History testify to cessation of the charismata.

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>>>[Green] The last-days Church was being sanctified in a thoroughly unique era and for a thoroughly unique goal: That it might emerge from out of the "revelatory" age in which God spoke in the prophets, (Heb. 1:1-2) and might become the Temple of God (Eph. 2:21) in the impending world of fulfillment. Neither of those conditions are applicable to our sanctification-"experience" today.

>>[PV] I see an assertion here, but no scriptural support.

>[Green] Heb. 1:1-2 (sited above) scripturally supports the assertion that the pre-Christ age was the revelatory age in which God "spoke in the prophets."

[PV] Hebrews 1:1-2 is not making any such distinction (compare to similar language in Lk 1:67-70 where Zacharias the priest is himself prophesying). The Book of Hebrews is arguing for the supremacy of Christ over the prophets (Heb 1:1-2), over the angels (1:4-2:7), over Moses (3:1-6), over the Aaronic priesthood (7:1-8:6), over the Old Covenant system and Temple (8:6-9:28), over the old blood sacrifices (10:1-24), etc. etc. Heb 1:1-2 is merely a statement about the supremacy of Christ over the prophets--NOT one about a pre-Christ revelatory age vs. some other non-revelatory age. Was not God speaking by the Holy Spirit regularly from 4 BC to AD 70? Indeed He was (see: Lk 2:36-38, 2:25-35, 1:67-70, 1:15-17, 4:1, 4:18, 11:49; Acts 11:27, 15:32, 19:6, 21:9-10; 1 Peter 4:10-11).

Again, you must show that this work of the Spirit was to cease to be available after AD 70. The charisms are all ONE class, indivisible. They are all the ministries of the Holy Spirit and all capable of being expressed as He wills in the New Covenant Age (as Church History also testifies).

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>>[PV] Where does scripture teach that the sanctification of the New Covenant believers of AD 30-70 is not the same sanctification of New Covenant believers after AD 70?

>[Green] The last-days saints were being sanctified to come out of the age of the prophets and to become the Temple of God (A.D. 30-70), and the post-70 saints are sanctified in the completed Temple of God in the New Covenant world. Do you agree?

[PV] I disagree that the New Covenant saints believed they were "coming out of the age of the prophets" and into some age without the prophetic work of the Holy Spirit in the Church (see above refutation of Heb 1:1-2). No scripture teaches your assertion.

I do agree that the Church was built in the first century. But this says nothing in favor of cessationism of any kind.

Finally, one key glory of the New Covenant system (in direct contrast to the Old), is that the worshipper undergoes real transformation unto love, holiness, and obedience to God (sanctification/perfection). The New Covenant brings men unto perfection by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit (through the charisms), repairing a serious deficiency in the Old Covenant system as pertained to the weaknesses of man (Heb 7:19; 10:1). Under the New Covenant System, all those undergoing sanctification of the Spirit are perfected by Christ's offering forever (Heb 10:14). Furthermore, "the one that sanctifies and they who are being sanctified are one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren" (Heb 2:11). Christ is not ashamed to call brothers those sinners that are on the path to love, holiness and obedience by the real efficacy of the New Covenant system.

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>>[PV] Also, when the Church itself, by its nature, consists of various functions and members that have long since gone extinct, there is no Church left of which to speak. It is a unicorn, a mythical creature (or at least a dinosaur). The Church is either Spirit filled as in AD 30-70 or it is extinct.

>[Green] As you said in your Commentary on 1 Corinthians Chapter 13, "The mature believer does away with former imperfections of early development and immaturity." The Body of Christ was perfected at the Parousia. Agreed? Therefore at that time, the Body of Christ did away with "former imperfections of early development and immaturity." Agreed?

[PV] "Babe"/"child" in 1 Cor 13:11 speaks of the early development/imperfections of individuals (compare 1 Cor 13:11 to 1 Cor 14:20, 3:1-2). (See also: Eph 4:14; Heb 5:12-6:1; 1 Peter 2:1-2; 1 Cor 3:1-3; 1 Jn 2:13; Rom 2:20.) "That which is perfect" is the state of maturity in love, holiness and obedience that individual babes were/are commanded to attain unto (as in 1 Cor 14:20; 2 Cor 13:9,11; 1 Jn 2:5, 4:18; Mt 5:48). Individuals were in fact reaching perfection under the New Covenant system (1 Cor 2:6; Phil 3:15; Jas 3:2; Col 1:28)--this, in stark contrast to those that had lived under the Mosaic era/covenant (Heb 7:19; 10:1).

Paul's metaphor concerning his own childhood vs. manhood underscores the fact that the maturity of individuals from childish ways to mature ways is in view. The Holy Spirit's manifesting charisms weren't childish, the Corinthians were childish. The Spirit's workings were the very ascension/glorification gifts of Jesus Christ unto men--they were the very might and power of God Himself. The "childish ways" (1 Cor 13:11) were the schisms and abuses that the Corinthians were creating by not handling the powers of the age to come (Heb 6:5-6) in love and according to rule. By their immaturities, many at Corinth were rendering the utility of the charisms of God ineffective (1 Cor 12:21,25-26; 1 Cor 13:1-3, 8-9). Many in the Corinthian congregation were not acting with love, were not practicing gifts according to selfless utility. In fact, the receivers of various charisms were pitting one charism-group against another (1 Cor 12:15-27), resulting in schism (1 Cor 12:25). The solution to these imperfections of the Corinthians was the surpassing excellency of the way of love. In contrast to the charisms which do fail through immaturities and abuses, love never fails (1 Cor 13:4-8). Love is more excellent. The way of divine love surpasses all kingdom powers in rank and efficacy.

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>>[PV] Furthermore, as I have shown above, they are all one class together and they empower the Church--role, function, and member. If they are gone the Church is gone (at least, the Church that the first disciples could have recognized).

>[Green] Paul said the Church would be "changed" at the Parousia. (I Cor. 15:51-52) You seem to be saying there was no change whatsoever, and that if there was a change, it would make the Church "unrecognizable."

[PV] Paul, in 1 Cor 15:51-52, is not speaking about some change from the Spirit's charisms working in the Church to no charisms working in the Church. The "change" was the receipt of eternal life, the "zoe" of God that raised the dead of the Hadean realm into God's transcendent heaven (where Paul also visited in 2 Cor 12:2-4). This passage has nothing to do with cessation of any gifts of the Holy Spirit.

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>>[Green] The disappearance of prophecies at the Appearance of He whom the prophecies spoke does not imply the disappearance of the Church that He came to indwell.

[PV] You are presupposing the "disappearance" of prophesying as a New Covenant charism of the Spirit. You are getting this notion by misunderstanding 1 Cor 13:8-9. When Paul says "whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...", he is referring back to all the charisms of 1 Cor 12 as a class, and contrasting them all to the more excellent way--love (1 Cor 12:31). He's not just picking on tongues, gnosis, and prophesying. ALL the charisms in their greatest measure are nothing apart from love (1 Cor 13:1-3). They fail. Love, in contrast to these, never fails.

The fact that Paul is speaking of all the charisms as a class when he says "whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]..." refutes your position. For you say that only three charisms have become extinct, yet this is untenable. 1 Cor 13:8 speaks of the entire class of charisms, represented by a few ("whether there be...whether there be ...whether there be ...") . If the three are gone that you say are gone, then ALL are gone and the Church is without any workings of the Holy Spirit and the Church has ceased all functioning.

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>>[PV] What experiences and fruits would you point to in today's New Covenant Ministry of the Holy Spirit that compare to the ones taught and expressed in the New Covenant?

>[Green] Essentially, everything but the revelatory gifts, the continuation of which implied non-fulfillment, i.e., immaturity, i.e., the absence of the indwelling Christ and His Kingdom.

[PV] Same as above. This inconsistent cessationist position is indefensible. When Paul says "whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...", he is referring back to ALL the charisms of 1 Cor 12 as a class and contrasting them all to the more excellent way--love (1 Cor 12:31). He's not just picking on tongues, gnosis, and prophesying. If these three are now extinct, then ALL the charisms are extinct, and the Church is thus without any workings of the Holy Spirit and the Church has ceased functioning. Is that the Church that Christ came to build? Both scripture and Church history say "no."

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>>[PV] Would the first century believers recognize your list of modern experiences of the Holy Spirit?

>[Green] Yes, the saints who prophesied of the coming Kingdom would be able to recognize the "experiences" of the saints in the fulfilled Kingdom who do not prophesy.

[PV] Then why is this nowhere in scripture?

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>>[Green] As I Cor. 13:8-12 teaches:
Prophecies were partial and were to be abolished (8-9).
Tongues were to cease (8).
Knowledge was partial and was to be abolished (8-9,12).

[PV] As I just said above, when Paul says "whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...", he is referring to ALL the charisms of 1 Cor 12 as a class and contrasting them all to the more excellent way--love (see: 1 Cor 12:31-13:3). Here is my restatement of the key passage of 1 Cor 13:5-11:

*PARAPHRASE OF 1 Cor 13:5-11*
"Love does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not count wrongs; Love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth. Love bears all things believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things--love never fails! But, whether there be [X charism]...whether there be [Y charism]...whether there be [Z charism], they will fail, BECAUSE we exercise them imperfectly, childishly, lacking (i.e., without maturity in love - cf. 13:1-3). Yet when maturity comes, immaturity will be done away. When I was a child I spoke and thought like a child. When I became a man, I put away childish things."

Who put away childish things? Paul did. When? When he was [physically] mature. What does Paul tell the Corinthians to do with regards to this immediate dilemma? He commands them to cease being children and to be men/perfect (1 Cor 14:20). If this meant ceasing to exercise "revelatory gifts" as you say it means, then Paul is contradicting himself in the same chapter, for Paul boldly instructs them to covet after the gift of congregational prophesying (1 Cor 14:39/12:31) and says all may prophesy (1 Cor 14:31)! Paul is commanding them to NOT forbid tongues (1 Cor 14:39), and wishes they all could speak in tongues as he himself did (1 Cor 14:5,18). Therefore, "ceasing to be the child and becoming the man" cannot mean what you say it means. Your interpretation is indefensible.

For certain, "ceasing to be the child" and "becoming the man" (1 Cor 13:11/14:20) means to exercise all the charisms in love and according to rule, and to stop the abuses of the charisms through immaturities/imperfection. That is what Paul means by putting away the childish things and becoming perfect (1 Cor 13:11/14:20). For this to mean what you say, Paul would have to be commanding the Corinthians to cease prophesying and speaking in tongues. Yet he is doing precisely the opposite there in 1 Cor chs.12-14. YB,

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1/19/03 [Green's Response to PV]

Regarding I Cor. 13:8-12...Before I comment much more on your interpretation of this passage, let me first verify that I understand you. Please let me know if these brief paraphrases accurately reflect your view:

Verse 8: Love never fails, but MISUSED SPIRITUAL GIFTS (whatever they may be; say, "prophecy, tongues and knowledge," for example) will FAIL / BE MADE USELESS.

(Btw, how do you interpret "cease" in that verse?)

Verse 9-10: We're all "partial" (i.e., immature) in our knowledge, and we're all "partial" (i.e., immature) in our prophesying; but eventually each one of us, one at a time, will realize maturity in the course of our Christian lives. Each one of us will individually reach full knowledge and will prophesy fully, (??) and we will all individually put away our "partial" prophesies (??) and "partial" knowledge. This will happen to us all, one at a time, in the course of our Christian walks.

Verse 11: I, Paul, was a child once, but I did away with childish things when I became a man. [You made some comments in your last message about this verse, stressing that Paul was talking about himself. I'm not sure what your point was. Can you please elaborate? And do you believe Paul was talking about his own natural maturity, or his own spiritual maturity?]

Verse 12: We all see in a mirror dimly because we're all immature; but eventually we'll all reach maturity, one by one in the course of our lives. Whenever one of us reaches maturity in his individual life, that's when he finally sees God "face to Face," as Moses did. Not all Christians see God "face to Face." Only mature Christians see God "face to Face." All immature Christians in the New Covenant Age look at God through a "dim mirror."

Is all that correct?

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>>[PV] There is no justification for dividing them [the charisms] up arbitrarily...You cannot arbitrarily divide them up.

[Green] I agree.

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>>[PV] The charisms are one class, the ascension gifts of Christ to His Church (Eph 4:8/Jn 7:37-39).

[Green] I agree that the gifts are "one class" insofar as they are all "the ascension gifts of Christ to His Church." However, that does not preclude the position that some of the gifts served their eschatological purpose and ceased / were done away.

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>>[PV] Again, if the charisms are all extinct, then the Church's functions, roles, and members are extinct.

[Green] I agree.

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>>[PV] ...The "power that was working in the first-century saints" was the charismatic powers of the Spirit which were being expressed in them in the full range of the gifts (cf. Eph 3:20 to Eph 3:7 to Rom 12:6-7 / Eph 4:7-8,11).

[Green] I agree.

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>>[PV] ...There is no "sub-class" of the charisms known as "revelatory."

[Green] I agree the word "revelatory" is not in the Bible. Nevertheless prophecy, tongues and knowledge were, unlike other gifts, revelations. Hence the class, "revelatory."

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>>[PV] ...Heb 1:1-2 is merely a statement about the supremacy of Christ over the prophets--NOT one about a pre-Christ revelatory age vs. some other non-revelatory age.

[Green] "In many times and in many ways of old, God spoke to the fathers in the prophets; in these last days [or "in the last of these days"] He spoke to us in the Son..." (Heb. 1:1-2)

According to verse 1, the "last days" were the "last days" of those ages in which God "spoke in the prophets." That is the contextual sense of "last days" in verse 2. (And I agree there is an implied superiority of Christ over the prophets in the verses.)

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>>[PV] Was not God speaking by the Holy Spirit regularly from 4 BC to AD 70? Indeed He was...

[Green] I agree. It follows that God was still speaking in the prophets "in the last days" of the ages in which He "spoke in the prophets."

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>>[PV] I do agree that the Church was built in the first century....

[Green] Then you agree that the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification is no longer for the purpose of constructing the New-Covenant Temple of God (the Church)?

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>>[PV] The Holy Spirit's manifesting charisms weren't childish; the Corinthians were childish

[Green] The Church's revelations, by design, looked forward to Parousial maturity. (Eph. 4:13) Therefore the Church's revelations were by definition, "things of the child."

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>>[PV] Paul, in 1 Cor 15:51-52, is not speaking about some change from the Spirit's charisms working in the Church to no charisms working in the Church. The "change" was the receipt of eternal life, the "zoe" of God that raised the dead of the Hadean realm into God's transcendent heaven (where Paul also visited in 2 Cor 12:2-4). This passage has nothing to do with cessation of any gifts of the Holy Spirit.

[Green] Are you saying that the "change" that took place at the Parousia had absolutely no existential, experiential effect on the Church on Earth?

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>>[PV] ...When Paul says "whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...", he is referring back to all the charisms of 1 Cor 12 as a class...

[Green] Paul referred to prophecy, tongues and knowledge because, as you know, the Corinthians were abusing those particular gifts. Does it not agree then with the context of I Cor. 13 that Paul was speaking of the revelatory gifts specifically?

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>>[PV] *MY PARAPHRASE OF 1 Cor13:5-11* "....love never fails! But, whether there be [X charism]...whether > there be [Y charism]...whether there be [Z charism], they will fail...."

[Green] I realize that is a paraphrase, but the last word should not be "fail." It is not the same Greek word as that found in, "love never FAILS." The word is "done away" / "abolished," and is parallel with "cease."

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>>[PV] ...Yet when maturity comes, immaturity will be done away.

[Green] That which was "in part" would be "done away." (I Cor. 13:10) That which was "in part" was "Prophecy and knowledge." (I Cor. 13:9) Meaning: "Prophecy and knowledge" would be "done away" when "the perfect" came:

"We know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, that which is in part will be done away." (I Cor. 13:9-10)

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>>[PV] What does Paul tell the Corinthians to do with regards to this immediate dilemma? He commands them to cease being children and to be men/perfect (1 Cor 14:20).

[Green] Amen. Through the "perfection" of the individual members of the Church (which included the brothers at Corinth in I Cor. 14:20), the whole Body ("WE" in I Cor. 13:9,12) would reach "perfection" at the Parousia (I Cor. 13:10), and would see God "face to Face" in the New Jerusalem (I Cor. 13:12; Rev. 22:4) --thereby necessitating the abolition and cessation of that which looked forward to "the perfect"; namely: prophecy, tongues and knowledge. (I Cor. 13:8)

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>>[PV] If this meant ceasing to exercise "revelatory gifts" as you say it means, then Paul is contradicting himself in the same chapter, for Paul boldly instructs them to covet after the gift of congregational prophesying (1 Cor 14:39/12:31) and says all may prophesy (1 Cor 14:31)! Paul is commanding them to NOT forbid tongues (1 Cor 14:39), and wishes they all could speak in tongues as he himself did (1 Cor 14:5,18)! Therefore, "ceasing to be the child and becoming the man" cannot mean what you say it means....

[Green] I didn't mean to suggest that whenever individual Christians became "perfected in love" between 30-70 they stopped receiving revelations. I meant only that when the whole Church, the whole Body, reached maturity (when all things were fulfilled at the end of the Age in 70), then the revelations were "done away" in the New Covenant world.

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1/19/03 [PV's Response to Green]

>>[Green] Before I comment much more on your interpretation of this passage, let me first verify that I understand you. Please let me know if these brief paraphrases accurately reflect your view:

Verse 8: Love never fails, but MISUSED SPIRITUAL GIFTS (whatever they may be; say, "prophecy, tongues and knowledge," for example) will FAIL / BE MADE USELESS. (Btw, how do you interpret "cease" in that verse?)

[PV] In 13:8-9, Paul is simply restating what he just said in 12:31-13:3:

--COMPARE THIS--

1 Corinthians 12:31-13:3 (YLT) desire earnestly the better gifts, and yet a far excelling way do I show to you: If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling; and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing; and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing.

--TO THIS--

1 Corinthians 13:8-9 (YLT) all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth--love doth never fail. But whether there be prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless, for we know in part ["imperfectly"], and we prophecy in part ["imperfectly"]

These two statements are precisely parallel, and they both explain how the charismata can be made of no effect, nullified, made "nothing," by a lack of love and holiness in believers (i.e., through imperfection). In 1 Cor 12:31-13:3, the class of charismata just discussed in chapter 12 are said to be made of no effect, useless, nothing, by a lack of love. The charismata are in this way nullified, made nothing, made useless. The same thing is being said in 13:8-9. In 1 Cor 13:8-9, the class of charismata just discussed in chapter 12 are said to be made of no effect, useless, nothing, by the same lack of love, the same imperfection of the believer--i.e., by the precise immaturity the Corinthians were exhibiting.

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>>[Green] Verse 9-10: We're all "partial" (i.e., immature) in our knowledge, and we're all "partial" (i.e., immature) in our prophesying; but eventually each one of us, one at a time, will realize maturity in the course of our Christian lives. Each one of us will individually reach full knowledge and will prophesy fully, (??) and we will all individually put away our "partial" prophesies (??) and "partial" knowledge. This will happen to us all, one at a time, in the course of our Christian walks

[PV] Perfection/maturity in love (or even, "perfect love") does away with imperfections and immaturities in believers, the ones that can render the charismata "nothing," "of no effect", "useless". Thus, Paul's solution to the Corinthian problem is not to command the cessation of the Spirit's charismata, but, rather, to command maturity in love and holiness. It is not the charismata that are "childish," it is the Corinthians that are childish. Through their childish ways, the Corinthians had been rendering the gifts ineffective and causing all sorts of problems in their Church. Thus, Paul says many at Corinth must stop being children and become men (1 Cor 14:20/13:11; 3:1-2). They need to be perfect (2 Cor 13:9,11). By striving for the most excellent "way" (perfection in love), the childish imperfections of the Corinthians will be made nothing, put away. Everything needed to be done decently and in order, unto proper edification and worship.

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>>[Green] Verse 11: I, Paul, was a child once, but I did away with childish things when I became a man. [You made some comments in your last message about this verse, stressing that Paul was talking about himself. I'm not sure what your point was. Can you please elaborate? And do you believe Paul was talking about his own natural maturity, or his own spiritual maturity?]

[PV] Paul is using a metaphor for teaching purposes. Paul's own physical/mental human development from child to adult is cited as analogous to the spiritual maturity that he is prescribing for individuals. Childish ways are the natural by-product of being children. But, when maturity comes, mature people put away their childishness. So also must the Corinthians strive to put away their childish imperfections which were seriously imparing the Corinthian church. And, those "childish imperfections" were NOT the three charismata of prophesying, tongues, and gnosis.

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>>[Green] Verse 12: We all see in a mirror dimly because we're all immature; but eventually we'll all reach maturity, one by one in the course of our lives. Whenever one of us reaches maturity in his individual life, that's when he finally sees God "face to Face," as Moses did. Not all Christians see God "face to Face." Only mature Christians see God "face to Face." All immature Christians in the New Covenant Age look at God through a "dim mirror."

[PV] Paul is citing Numbers 12:6-8, where the seventy prophets/elders--upon whom the Spirit was poured out in Numbers 11:16-30--were not as mature as Moses. Even though Moses and the elders were all prophesying by the Spirit, the imperfections of the elders were imparing how they saw and understood God and his ways (Num 12:6-8). It is important to note there that Moses was ecstatic that the Spirit was poured out on the seventy elders, and he there exclaimed how he wished God would pour out his Spirit on ALL the Israelites (Num 11:25-29; cf 1 Cor 14:5,18,39)! In the mind of Moses, the pouring out of the Spirit on all in this manner would be a very, very good thing for all God's people. Yet, Moses's wish would not become a reality for Israel until the time of Christ's ascension and the availability of the Spirit for all Israelites at Pentecost.

Very few Israelites had access to the Holy Spirit in OT times. In fact, the veiling of Moses so that his followers could not see God's glory became institutionalized in the Law Covenant, keeping most Israelites away from direct contact with the Holy Spirit for 1500 years. The Old Covenant era, therefore, was an age where Moses and a few select others had the Spirit, but the rest were kept out of direct relations with God the Holy Spirit. Thus, they were prevented from coming to perfection through the sanctifying work of the Spirit (Heb 7:11,19; 10:1). The good news of the New Covenant age is that this deficiency has been repaired. Because of Christ, the New Covenant age is now based in the primacy of the Holy Spirit's ministry among God's people (2 Cor 3:6-18). By His ministry, many indeed undergo transformation into the very image of God's Son, so that Christ is the "firstborn among MANY BRETHREN" (2 Cor 3:18/Rom 8:29/Heb 2:11). This occurs through the sanctifying Spirit of the Lord, "from glory to glory." By beholding God without a veil and by the Spirit's work, sinners are transformed into people of real love, holiness, and obedience. It should also be restated that "receiving of the Spirit" has experiential aspects, primarily found in the "manifestation of the Spirit" through his charisms (Num 11:25-29/Ex 40:30-38/1 Ki 8:1-11/Acts 2:1-39, 10:44-47, 11:15-18, 19:1-7/1 Cor 12:7-31).

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>>[PV] ...there is no justification for dividing them [the charisms] up arbitrarily....You cannot arbitrarily divide them up

>[Green] I agree.

[PV] Therefore if any of the charisms have gone into extinction (as you are seeking to prove), then all have gone into extinction. And if all have gone into extinction, then the Church's role, function, and members are extinct and the Church is no more an agency of God the Holy Spirit. It is this following list of charisms that makes the Church what it is (a temple filled with a LIVING God who actively ministers):

THE CHARISMATA OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE CHURCH

* Mercy/Compassion (Rom 12:8) * Diversities of Tongues (1 Cor 12:10,28,30; 14:2-4,39; Acts 19:6; Mk 16:17) * Interpretation of Tongues (1 Cor 12:10,30/14:13,27-28) * Church Government (1 Cor 12:28) * Pastor (Eph 4:11) * Charitable Giving (Rom 12:8) * Teacher (Rom 12:7/James 3:2/Eph 4:11/Heb 5:12-14/1 Cor 12:28;Acts 13:1) * Gifts for healing (1 Cor 12:9,28,30) * Hospitality (1 Peter 4:9-10/Rom 12:13) * Discerning of Spirits (1 Cor 12:10/1 Jn 4:1/1 Thess 5:19-21) * Exhortation (Rom 12:8/1 Cor 14:3) * Works of power/miracles (1 Cor 12:10,28-29) * Rule/Overseeing/Eldership (Rom 12:8/1 Tim 5:17/1 Thess 5:12/1 Tim 3:5) * Faith (1 Cor 12:9) * Word of Wisdom (1 Cor 12:8) * Word of Knowledge (1 Cor 12:8) * Apostleship (1 Cor 12:28-29/Eph 4:8,11) * Ministry (1 Pet 4:10-11/Rom 12:7/Eph 3:7,4:12/2 Cor 4:1/1 Cor 16:15/Col 4:17/1 Timothy 1:12/2 Tim 4:5) * Prophesying (Rom 12:6/1 Pet 4:10-11/1 Cor 12:10,28; 14:5,31,39/Eph 4:11/Acts 21:9,13:1,19:6; 1 Thess 5:19-21) * Evangelist (Eph 4:11/2 Tim 4:5/Acts 21:8)

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>>[PV] The charisms are one class, the ascension gifts of Christ to His Church (Eph 4:8/Jn 7:37-39).

>[Green] I agree that the gifts are "one class" insofar as they are all "the ascension gifts of Christ to His Church." However, that does not preclude the position that some of the gifts served their eschatological purpose and ceased / were done away.

[PV] You are presupposing that the Holy Spirit's ministries were "eschatological" (as opposed to COVENANTAL), and you are presupposing that they were done away--or were to be done away--at a point in history. These presuppositions are entirely unscriptural. There is nothing in scripture that teaches this. Was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the seventy elders in Numbers 11:25-29 "eschatological"? Was the outpouring upon Moses, Aaron and sons in Exodus 40:30-38 eschatological? Was the appearing of the glory of the Spirit at Solomon's Temple in 1 Kings 8:1-11 "eschatological"? When Moses said he wished God could pour out His Spirit upon all and that all might prophesy (Numbers 11:25-29), was he hoping for the cessation of prophesying? It's unthinkable.

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>>[PV] Again, if the charisms are all extinct, then the Church's functions, roles, and members are extinct.

>[Green] I agree.

[PV] Again, if any of the charisms have gone into extinction (as you are seeking to prove), then all have gone into extinction. And if all have gone into extinction, then the Church's role, function, and members are extinct and the Church is no more an agency of God the Holy Spirit. You have yet to demonstrate that any of the charisms were to go extinct. You also have yet to prove that there are sub-classes of charisms. I believe I have demonstrated that the charisms are all one class, and that no scripture anywhere teaches the cessation of ANY--much less all--of the Holy Spirit's charisms. I have also demonstrated that the charisms were not childish and needing to go away. Rather, the Corinthians were childish.

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>>[PV] ....The "power that was working in the first-century saints" was the charismatic powers of the Spirit which were being expressed in them in the full range of the gifts (cf. Eph 3:20 to Eph 3:7 to Rom 12:6-7 / Eph 4:7-8,11).

>[Green] I agree.

[PV] I'm glad to see you agree that Eph 3:20 is speaking of the Holy Spirit and the charismata. It is my hope that more Christians come alive to God the Holy Spirit as they read through passages like Eph 3:14-21 and Eph 1:15-23 and seek greater communion with God the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 13:14). The only lawful coveting is the coveting of the Holy Spirit's charisms (1 Cor 12:31).

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>>[PV] ...There is no "sub-class" of the charisms known as "revelatory."

>[Green] I agree the word "revelatory" is not in the Bible. Nevertheless prophecy, tongues and knowledge were, unlike other gifts, revelations. Hence the class, "revelatory."

[PV] Scripture never teaches of a "revelatory" class of the charisms, and Paul is certainly not teaching of such in 1 Cor 13:8. when Paul says "whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...", he is referring to ALL the charisms of 1 Cor 12 as a class and contrasting them all to the more excellent way--love (see: 1 Cor 12:31-13:3). Note that Paul speaks of additional charisms being made "nothing/of no effect" in 1 Cor 13:1-3. ALL the charisms are made useless, of no effect, nothing, by a lack of love and when not exercised according to rule.

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>>[PV] ...Heb 1:1-2 is merely a statement about the supremacy of Christ over the prophets--NOT one about a pre-Christ revelatory age vs. some other non-revelatory age.

>[Green] "In many times and in many ways of old, God spoke to the fathers in the prophets; in these last days [or "in the last of these days"] He spoke to us in the Son..." (Heb. 1:1-2)

According to verse 1, the "last days" were the "last days" of those ages in which God "spoke in the prophets." That is the contextual sense of "last days" in verse 2. (And I agree there is an implied superiority of Christ over the prophets in the verses.)

[PV] The writer of Hebrews is simply asserting the superiority of God's son who spoke at the time of the institution of the New Covenant. The superiority of Christ is being asserted. Nothing here is teaching cessationism of any kind.

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>>[PV] Was not God speaking by the Holy Spirit regularly from 4 BC to AD 70? Indeed He was....

>[Green] I agree. It follows that God was still speaking in the prophets "in the last days" of the ages in which He "spoke in the prophets."

[PV] There is no cessationist teaching anywhere to be found in Hebrews 1:1-2. It is presupposed and then inserted into this text.

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>>[PV] I do agree that the Church was built in the first century....

>[Green] Then you agree that the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification is no longer for the purpose of constructing the New-Covenant Temple of God (the Church)?

[PV] The Holy Spirit's work of sanctification is for the purpose of bringing many sons to glory under the New Covenant:

Hebrews 2:10-12, 16 For it became him...in bringing many sons to glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, "I will declare your name to my brothers, In the midst of the congregation will I sing your praise." ...For most assuredly, not to angels does he give help, but he gives help to the seed of Abraham.

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>>[PV] The Holy Spirit's manifesting charisms weren't childish; the Corinthians were childish.

>[Green] The Church's revelations, by design, looked forward to Parousial maturity. (Eph. 4:13) Therefore the Church's revelations were by definition, "things of the child."

[PV] You are falling back into an "eschatological perfect" mindset, which 1 Cor 13 doesn't teach (nor does any scripture teach this). You are then transferring that over to Eph 4. But this doesn't work. The statement about "not being children anymore" in Eph 4:14 is NOT speaking of a Church that is childishly relying on a "sub-class of revelatory gifts" versus some mature post-AD 70 church without "revelatory gifts." That's not at all what Eph 4:11-16 is saying. Quite plainly, Paul's statement about "being no more children" in Eph 4:14 fully supports my assertion that the use of "childish" (and its variants) is PEJORATIVE and speaks out against the childish immaturities of Christians who have not grown up in love (see Eph 4:14-16). Because of certain erroneous presuppositions you have, you are forced into disparaging as "childish" the revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit. You are belittling the ascension gifts of Jesus Christ as "childish." Paul's use of "child" (and its variants) is pejorative, and, for sure, he is NOT using it to speak of Christ's prophetic gifts or any of the charismata of the Holy Spirit. Your presuppositional errors predispose you to speak disparagingly of certain charismata. There is no way around this.

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>>[PV] Paul, in 1 Cor 15:51-52, is not speaking about some change from the > Spirit's charisms working in the Church to no charisms working in the Church. The "change" was the receipt of eternal life, the "zoe" of God that raised the dead of the Hadean realm into God's transcendent heaven (where Paul also visited in 2 Cor 12:2-4). This passage has nothing to do with cessation of any gifts of the Holy Spirit.

>[Green] Are you saying that the "change" that took place at the Parousia had absolutely no existential, experiential effect on the Church on Earth?

[PV] This is a red herring, Dave. What does this have to do with our discussion? You seem to be taking you unproven presupposition about cessation and extending it everywhere it doesn't belong.

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>>[PV] ...When Paul says "whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...whether there be [this]...", he is referring back to all the charisms of 1 Cor 12 as a class....

>[Green] Paul referred to prophecy, tongues and knowledge because, as you know, the Corinthians were abusing those particular gifts. Does it not agree then with the context of I Cor. 13 that Paul was speaking of the revelatory gifts specifically?

[PV] 1 Cor 13:8-9 is precisely parallel to 13:1-3 where Paul tells how the charisms of tongues, faith, sacrificial giving (cf Rom 12:8), prophecy, and gnosis are nullified/made useless without love. So, it is impossible that Paul is speaking only about some special group of three "revelatory gifts" in 13:8-9. Rather, he is speaking of ALL charisms and contrasting them ALL to the more excellent way of divine love (as 1 Cor 12:31 also explicitly states).

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>>[PV] *MY PARAPHRASE OF 1 Cor13:5-11* ....love never fails! But, whether there be [X charism]...whether > there be [Y charism]...whether there be [Z charism], they will fail...

>[Green] I realize that is a paraphrase, but the last word should not be "fail." It is not the same Greek word as that found in, "love never FAILS." The word is "done away" / "abolished," and is parallel with "cease."

[PV] "Cease," and "be made useless/made void" in 13:8 are precisely parallel to the nullification of the various charisms described in 13:1-3. The charismata are made "null/of no effect" through immaturity/imperfection. Also, this statement about "tongues stopping" and "gnosis and prophesying being made useless" is contrasted against love's quality of never "failing" ("ekpipto"), "falling" or "being of no effect" as the Greek literally means. The meaning of love's "never-failing" quality is shown to be its UNFAILING EFFICACY (13:4-7). The failing/being made of no effect in 13:8 is the same as 13:1-3 where a variety of charismata are shown to be nullified by an absence of love.

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>>[PV] ...Yet when maturity comes, immaturity will be done away.

>[Green] That which was "in part" would be "done away." (I Cor. 13:10) That which was "in part" was "Prophecy and knowledge." (I Cor. 13:9) Meaning: "Prophecy and knowledge" would be "done away" when "the perfect" came

[PV] "That which is in part" is "immaturity" itself. "That which is in part" is not code for some other thing. Immaturity itself is put away by maturity. The "in part/imperfect" is done away by "the perfect," the "mature man." Paul says "when I became a man I put away childish things." Imperfection is made useless/null by the perfection of saints. Childish ways are put away by grown men (1 Cor 13:11/14:20). The perfecting of saints (Eph 4:11-12) in love is designed to do away with childish immaturities in God's people (Eph 4:14-16).

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>>[PV] What does Paul tell the Corinthians to do with regards to this immediate dilemma? He commands them to cease being children and to be men/perfect (1 Cor 14:20).

>[Green] Amen. Through the "perfection" of the individual members of the Church (which included the brothers at Corinth in I Cor. 14:20), the whole Body ("WE" in I Cor. 13:9,12) would reach "perfection" at the Parousia (I Cor. 13:10), and would see God "face to Face" in the New Jerusalem (I Cor. 13:12; Rev. 22:4) --thereby necessitating the abolition and cessation of that which looked forward to "the perfect"; namely: prophecy, tongues and knowledge. (I Cor. 13:8)

[PV] You have created an internally inconsistent interpretation. You say that "being a man" in 1 Cor 13:11 equates to the "putting away of three revelatory gifts" (I'll forget about the divided-class dilemma you face for a minute). Yet if "becoming men" in 13:11 equates to the "putting away of revelatory gifts," then 1 Cor 14:20 would have to be a call for the Corinthians to put away revelatory gifts right then and there, for Paul commands them to stop being children and be men! And, as anyone can see from 1 Cor 14:26,31,39-40, Paul is calling for no such putting away of tongues, prophesying, or gnosis. To the contrary, Paul is calling for the very continuation and protection of these so called "childish gifts" (as your interpretation would have it). Can Paul be calling on the Corinthians to CONTINUE being children while at the same time calling on them to cease being children and be men??? Dave, this is a comprehensive collapse of logic.

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>>[PV] If this meant ceasing to exercise "revelatory gifts" as you say it means, then Paul is contradicting himself in the same chapter, for Paul boldly instructs them to covet after the gift of congregational prophesying (1 Cor 14:39/12:31) and says all may prophesy (1 Cor 14:31)! Paul is commanding them to NOT forbid tongues (1 Cor 14:39), and wishes they all could speak in tongues as he himself did (1 Cor 14:5,18)! Therefore, "ceasing to be the child and becoming the man" cannot mean what you say it means...

>[Green] I didn't mean to suggest that whenever individual Christians became "perfected in love" between 30-70 they stopped receiving revelations.

[PV] It would have to mean that. There is no way around it. "Perfect in love" equates to "full grown manhood" and the concomitant ceasing to be a child, or childish (i.e., ceasing of "revelatory gifts" in your view). Do grown men need a pacifier? Do grown men play with Barbies? No. Therefore, all who were perfect before AD 70 would have HAD to cease participation in the Spirit's "childish gifts" of prophesying, gnosis, and tongues (again, "childish" from your cessationist perspective). You have equated three of the Holy Spirit's works with childish ways, and so any who became perfect could NOT continue to play with the kids' stuff of gnosis, prophesying and tongues--for such would be a contradiction. Furthermore, note that Paul actually EXULTS in his own gift of tongues and wishes that ALL would have it (1 Cor14:5,18)! Paul commands them to covet prophesying and forbids anyone to prohibit speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:39-40; cf. Num 11:26-29). Even if any today should think tongues or prophesying or gnosis to be lesser gifts of the Holy Spirit, Paul argues that they are absolutely necessary to the body (1 Cor 12:21-26).

Dave,...you need to provide some positive, clear teaching from scripture in favor of cessationism. If you can't, I believe you will need to consider defecting from this position.

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1/20/03 [Green's Response to PV]

[Green] Please briefly let me know if these paraphrases of I Cor. 13:8-12 are accurate reflections of your view. Where these paraphrases are accurate, please say yes. And where they are inaccurate or need clarification, please correct me very briefly. Thanks for your patience and brevity.

Verse 8: Love never fails, but spiritual gifts that are misused through a lack of love will fail / be made useless. This is true of any and all spiritual gifts, whether prophecy, whether tongues, whether knowledge, or whatever other gifts. They will be made nothing, or "cease," as it were, through a lack of love / spiritual immaturity. Is that a correct paraphrase?

Verses 9-10: We're all "partial" (i.e., immature) in our knowledge, and we're all "partial" (i.e., immature) in our prophesying; but eventually each one of us, one at a time, will realize maturity (be perfected in love) in the course of our Christian lives. Each one of us will individually reach full knowledge and will prophesy fully, ["Prophesy fully?" What does that mean?] and we will all individually put away our "partial" prophecies ["Partial prophecies?" What does that mean?] and "partial" knowledge when we are perfected in love. This will happen to us all, one at a time, in the course of our Christian walks. Is that a correct paraphrase?

Verse 11: I, Paul, was a child (physically) once, but I did away with childish things when I became a man (physically). This is analogous to the spiritual maturity I am prescribing to you Corinthians. Put away your childish imperfections, each of you, and strive for maturity (perfection in love). Is that a correct paraphrase?

Verse 12: We all see in a mirror dimly because we're all immature now; but eventually we'll all reach maturity, one by one in the course of our lives, just as Moses did. Whenever one of us reaches maturity in his individual life, that's when he finally sees God "face to Face," as Moses did. Not all Christians see God "face to Face." Only mature Christians see God "face to Face." All immature Christians in the New Covenant Age will look at God through a "dim mirror." Only mature Christians will be transformed into the very image of God's Son. Is that a correct paraphrase?

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>>[PV] You are presupposing that the Holy Spirit's ministries were "eschatological" (as opposed to COVENANTAL), and you are presupposing that they were done away--or were to be done away--at a point in history.

[Green] That's not my position. (Nor is "eschatological" "opposed to" "covenantal.") My position is that the Holy Spirit's ministries are covenantal, and that the revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit were covenantal and eschatological. It is also not my position that the Holy Spirit's ministries were done away. My position is that the revelatory gifts were done away.

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>>[PV] When Moses said he wished God could pour out His Spirit upon all and that all might prophesy (Numbers 11:25-29), was he hoping for the cessation of prophesying? Its unthinkable.

[Green] I agree.

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>>>[PV] I do agree that the Church was built in the first century...

>>[Green] Then you agree that the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification is no longer for the purpose of constructing the New-Covenant Temple of God (the Church)?

>[PV] The Holy Spirit's work of sanctification is for the purpose of bringing many sons to glory under the New Covenant

[Green] I agree. Do you agree that the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification is no longer for the purpose of constructing the New-Covenant Temple of God (the Church)?

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>>[Green] The Church's revelations, by design, looked forward to Parousial maturity. (Eph. 4:13) Therefore the Church's revelations were by definition, "things of the child."

>[PV] ...The statement about "not being children anymore" in Eph 4:14 is NOT speaking of a Church that is childishly relying on a "sub-class of revelatory gifts" versus some mature post-AD 70 church without "revelatory gifts."

[Green] I didn't mean to suggest that Paul was talking about cessation in Eph. 4:14. My point in citing Eph. 4:13 was that the Church remained immature (was not yet a "man") before the Parousia, and that therefore the Church's revelatory gifts (which by design looked forward to Parousial maturity) were, by definition, "things of the child."

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>>[PV] ..the use of "childish" (and its variants) is PEJORATIVE.... Because of certain erroneous presuppositions you have, you are forced into disparaging as "childish" the revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit. You are belittling the ascension gifts of Jesus Christ as "childish." Paul's use of "child" (and its variants) is pejorative.... Your presuppositional errors predispose you to speak disparagingly of certain charismata. There is no way around this.

[Green] "Child" (and its variants) is not always pejorative. It is not my position that Paul's use of "child" in I Cor. 3:11 is disparaging or pejorative. It is not my position that the revelatory gifts were themselves childish children. My position is that the "child" was the eschatological Church, while Prophecy and Knowledge were "things of" that child.

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>>>[PV] ...The "change" [in 1 Cor 15:51-52] was the receipt of eternal life, the "zoe" of God...

>>[Green] Are you saying that the "change" that took place at the Parousia had absolutely no existential, experiential effect on the Church on Earth?

>[PV] ...What does this have to do with our discussion?...

[Green] You have said:

"...an 'eschatological perfect' mindset, which 1 Cor 13 doesn't teach (nor does any scripture teach this)."

You appear to be saying that 1 Cor 15:51-52 is teaching a non-experiential, positional, covenantal, "eschatological" change unto consummated eternal life (for the Church on Earth). You have rejected this non-experiential, positional, covenantal, "eschatological" concept as unbiblical when discussing I Cor. 13:10, but you seem to be endorsing it when examining I Cor. 15:51-52.

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>>[Green] That which was "in part" would be "done away." (I Cor. 13:10) That which was "in part" was "Prophecy and knowledge." (I Cor. 13:9) Meaning: "Prophecy and knowledge" would be "done away" when "the perfect" came:

"We know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, that which is in part will be done away." (I Cor. 13:9-10)

>[PV] "That which is in part" is "immaturity" itself....

[Green] "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, that which is in part will be done away" (I Cor. 13:9-10). Using the words of I Cor. 13:9-10, please tell me what, exactly, were said to be "in part" in I Cor. 13:9-10.

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>>[Green] I didn't mean to suggest that whenever individual Christians became "perfected in love" between 30-70 they stopped receiving revelations.

>[PV] It would have to mean that. There is no way around it....

[Green] That would be true if my position was that the personal perfection of individual Christians _caused_ the cessation of the revelatory gifts. But that is not my position. My position is that the cause of cessation was the prophecy-fulfilling Parousia of Christ --the Age-changing, Church-changing, Administration-changing Event that consummated the maturity / perfection of the whole Body and brought to realization the "full grown Man" (Eph. 4:13). (This was why Paul did not command believers to do away with the revelatory gifts, but only predicted the coming of "the perfect thing" and its resulting abolition / cessation of revelation.)

BTW, what do you think about these KJV references to men who were "perfect" under the old covenant? (Gen. 6:9; Job 1:1,8; 2:3; 8:20; Ps. 37:37)

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1/21-22/03 [PV's Response to Green]

>>[Green] What do you think about these KJV references to men who were "perfect" under the old covenant? (Gen. 6:9; Job 1:1,8; 2:3; 8:20; Ps. 37:37)

[PV] Sanctification was not an AD30-70 phenomenon. Like justification, it predates the last days generation by thousands of years (Jas 2:21-26). Those passages you listed communicate the basic concept of 'perfect'--i.e., actualized uprightness and holiness.

While it is hard to tell how many of God's saints had undergone perfecting prior to the rejection of the Holy Spirit at Sinai (and the attendant veiling of God's glory), we know that the Spirit's sanctifiying ministry was severely retracted and restricted by Israel's rejection of the Holy Spirit at Sinai, which then became institutionalized in the Law Covenant (Ex 20:18-19/Deut 5:22-31). In the eternal wisdom of God, the Mosaic System thus excluded the Holy Spirit's direct contact with MOST Israelites, and perfection of saints was covenantally restricted (Heb 7:11,19; 10:1). This ministry of the Holy Spirit was restored under the New Covenant contract, enabled by the efficacy of Christ's blood as well as the basic superiority of the New Covenant distinctives. So, sanctification unto perfection has resumed for all believers under the New Covenant. The New Covenant Church, by design, is a Spirit-driven, charism-imparting, sanctifyin' Mo-sheen. It's a factory specializing in the perfecting of sinners into actual, realized Christ-likeness and holiness.

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>>[Green] Please briefly let me know if these paraphrases of I Cor. 13:8-12 are accurate reflections of your view. Where these paraphrases are accurate, please say yes. And where they are inaccurate or need clarification, please correct me very briefly.

Verse 8: Love never fails, but spiritual gifts that are misused through a lack of love will fail / be made useless. This is true of any and all spiritual gifts, whether prophecy, whether tongues, whether knowledge, or whatever other gifts. They will be made nothing, or "cease," as it were, through a lack of love / spiritual immaturity. Is that a correct paraphrase?

[PV] Yes. See specific examples given in 13:1-3. Also note that the statement "love never fails" does not mean it never ceases at AD 70 (as it would need to mean in your view). The statement that love "never fails" speaks of its superior efficacy (13:4-7; 12:31) in contrast to that of all the lesser charisms (12:31-13:3). Love is unfailing, unfaltering. This all-surpassing efficacy forms the essence of why love is the "far excelling way" compared to the other charisms, and this forms the crux of Paul's argument in all of 1 Cor 13. Love cannot be nullifed (made nothing/rendered inneffectual). Love is unfailing.

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>>[Green] Verses 9-10: We're all "partial" (i.e., immature) in our knowledge, and we're all "partial" (i.e., immature) in our prophesying

[PV] Verses 8-9: Love is unfailing (as detailed in 13:4-7), but the lesser charismata are definitely not so--they fail (see12:31-13:3, 13:8). The lesser charismata--whether they be X, Y, or Z--may be be ineffectual and nullifed through imperfections of the believer (immaturity/absence of love/"the lacking" per Jas 1:4/Mt. 19:20). This nullification of charisms is described in 13:1-3. So, whatever the lesser charismata (tongues, miracles, government/rule, healing, sacrifical acts of giving, etc.), they are all subject to nullification or various failings by an absence of love and holiness. Even in their absolute, maximum potential ("have ALL faith..."understand ALL mysteries"..."give ALL..."), the charisms listed in 1 Cor 12:7-30 don't hold a candle to the surpassing efficacy of divine love. Love surpasses the charism of gnosis in excellence (per Eph 3:19), and love is called the "bond of perfection" (per Col 3:14).

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>>[Green] Verses 9-10: (cont'd) but eventually each one of us, one at a time, will realize maturity (be perfected in love) in the course of our Christian lives. Each one of us will individually reach full knowledge and will prophesy fully, ["Prophesy fully?" What does that mean?] and we will all individually put away our "partial" prophecies ["Partial prophecies?" What does that mean?] and "partial" knowledge when we are perfected in love. This will happen to us all, one at a time, in the course of our Christian walks. Is that a correct paraphrase?

[PV] Verses 10-11: When perfection is attained, imperfections/immaturities are done away. "The Perfect" nullifies "the Imperfect." The grown man (the perfect) does away with his former childish ways, the child (the imperfect). So while imperfection may nullify or render useless the lesser charisms, "the perfect" nullifies or renders useless "the imperfect".

1 Corinthians 13:10-11, 14:20 (YLT): "and when that which is perfect may come (cf. 14:20; 2 Cor 13:9,11), then that which is in part shall become useless. When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe...Brethren, become not children in the understanding, but in the evil be ye babes, and in the understanding become ye perfect"

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>>[Green] Verse 11: I, Paul, was a child (physically) once, but I did away with childish things when I became a man (physically). This is analogous to the spiritual maturity I am prescribing to you Corinthians. Put away your childish imperfections, each of you, and strive for maturity (perfection in love). Is that a correct paraphrase?

[PV] Yes. Compare 13:11 directly to 14:20 (and see also the "child/babe" references in 1 Cor 3:1-2/Eph 4:14). A mature saint puts away childish ways, as were rife among the Corinthian disciples (specifically, see the childish ways discussed in 1 Cor 12:15-25/3:1-5/14: 23-40). And, it must be re-stated that the "childish imperfections" are NOT "particpation in the Holy Spirit's charismata," as your view would necessitate. Rather, they are imperfections/immaturities of character--of one not acting in love and holiness.

Paul's desire is that the Corinthians experience the supernatural Love that surpasses even the charism of gnosis (Eph 3:18-19). Paul's desire is that they should "have love, the bond of perfection" (Col 3:14). Paul's desire is expressed in his closing remarks to the Corinthians: "Let all that you do be done in love" (1 Corinthians 16:14). That is maturity (perfect). See also Peter's connection:

1 Peter 1:2, 22 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ...Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another with a pure heart fervently

That is maturity (perfect).

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>>[Green] Verse 12: We all see in a mirror dimly because we're all immature now; but eventually we'll all reach maturity, one by one in the course of our lives, just as Moses did. Whenever one of us reaches maturity in his individual life, that's when he finally sees God "face to Face," as Moses did. Not all Christians see God "face to Face." Only mature Christians see God "face to Face." All immature Christians in the New Covenant Age will look at God through a "dim mirror." Only mature Christians will be transformed into the very image of God's Son. Is that a correct paraphrase?

[PV] All sanctification is a process of growth into knowing God "face to face," and all true believers are growing in sanctification under the New Covenant system. Sanctification is a transforming/transfiguring process unto true holiness and righteousness (cf. Eph 4:23-24/Rom 12:1-2/Rom 8:29/2 Cor 3:18). The life of Moses is clearly the example Paul is drawing from in this verse (see: Num 12:6-8/Deut 34:10-11/Heb 3:2-5). Those who have divine love and are pure see God, and have Christ's-likeness:

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace...and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God (physically) at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 Jn 3:6 whosoever sinneth hath not seen him (i.e., spiritually seen Him)

1 John 3:17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

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>>[PV] You are presupposing that the Holy Spirit's ministries were "eschatological" (as opposed to COVENANTAL), and you are presupposing that they were done away--or were to be done away--at a point in history.

>[Green] My position is that the Holy Spirit's ministries are covenantal, and that the revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit were covenantal and eschatological. It is also not my position that the Holy Spirit's ministries were done away. My position is that the revelatory gifts were done away.

[PV] So far it appears that your entire cessationist system is based on one single verse (1 Cor 13:8)--and, I maintain you have misinterpreted that single verse. Your entire view here is based on the belief that Paul singles out three of the charisms in 13:8 (which you call "revelatory gifts") and designates them for extinction at some point in history. This interpretation of 1 Cor 13:8 is untenable on the following grounds:

(1) Paul does not say they were to go extinct at some point in history.

(2) Paul is not speaking of a "revelatory sub-class" of the 1 Cor 12 charisms, but of ALL of the charisms as one class, for he says "whether there be...whether there be...whether there be..." By this, Paul is using a few charisms to speak of the entire class of charisms just discussed in chapter 12. Therefore, if Paul was teaching that those three have gone extinct, then ALL the charisms have gone extinct, and the Church's entire functioning is extinct. So, you are arguing an inconsistent cessationist position, trying to create a "revelatory sub-class" that was to go extinct (which is nowhere taught in scripture). It appears that your entire cessationist case rests on one single, solitary verse (1 Cor 13:8)--yet your interpretation of that single verse is erroneous.

(3) Your interpretation of 13:8 ignores the causal statement of 13:9 which explains WHY the charisms fail. The charisms do not fail because AD 70 comes, they fail because they are exercised imperfectly, in immaturity, with imperfect goals (cf. 12:31-13:3; 2 Pet 1:5-8, and see also 1 Cor 8:1-3's gnosis vs. agape distinction). You are ignoring this straightforward causal explanation Paul is giving for how the charisms may be made of no effect/nullified by a lack of the excellent virtue of love (2 Pet 1:5-8). Paul nowhere says that the charisms may go extinct because AD 70 finally arrives. That's not something taught anywhere in scripture.

(4) Your interpretation of 13:8, namely, that certain "revelatory gifts were to go extinct at AD 70," also ignores that Paul's statement about the three charisms is directly contrasted to the statement "love never fails," which is a statement not about love's DURATION, but about it's unfailing EFFICACY (as detailed in 13:4-7). Therefore, since "love never fails" is a statement of love's unfailing efficacy (as detailed in 13:4-7), then Paul's contrast to the charismata in the same verse (13:8) must be a comparison to their LACK OF EFFICACY, which was clearly said in 12:31-13:3 (and also suggested in 8:1-3) and is being re-emphasized in 13:8. Nowhere in 1 Cor 13 is Paul speaking of duration, but only of efficacy/rank/excellency.

(5) Your interpretation ignores that 1 Cor 13:8 is a re-emphasis/re-statement of 12:31-13:3, where a parallel "agape vs. the charisms" contrast is being discussed. As Paul teaches, the charisms of 1 Cor 12, even in their greatest potential measure, are of zero value or benefit apart from love (cf. 12:31-13:3; 2 Pet 1:5-8; see also 1 Cor 8:1-3's gnosis vs. agape distinction). The Corinthian's experience of the charisms was being rendered ineffectual by childish, imperfect ways--i.e., by failing to do all things in love (1 Cor 16:14).

(6) Your belief that the charism of "gnosis" (13:8/12:8) was to cease at some time in history is impossible to defend in light of countless other passages concerning "gnosis" in the NT.

Neither "prophesying" nor "gnosis" were uniquely "eschatological."

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>>>[Green] Then you agree that the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification is no longer for the purpose of constructing the New-Covenant Temple of God (the Church)?

>>[PV] The Holy Spirit's work of sanctification is for the purpose of bringing many sons to glory under the New Covenant

>[Green] I agree. Do you agree that the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification is no longer for the purpose of constructing the New-Covenant Temple of God (the Church)?

[PV] Could you cite your scriptures, please, to support your line of questioning?

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>>>[Green] The Church's revelations, by design, looked forward to Parousial maturity. (Eph. 4:13) Therefore the Church's revelations were by definition, "things of the child."

>>[PV] ...The statement about "not being children anymore" in Eph 4:14 is NOT speaking of a Church that is childishly relying on a "sub-class of revelatory gifts" versus some mature post-AD 70 church without "revelatory gifts."

>[Green] I didn't mean to suggest that Paul was talking about cessation in Eph. 4:14. My point in citing Eph. 4:13 was that the Church remained immature (was not yet a "man") before the Parousia, and that therefore the Church's revelatory gifts (which by design looked forward to Parousial maturity) were, by definition, "things of the child."

[PV] First, the three charisms of 1 Cor 13:8 are cited to speak for the whole class of all charisms discussed in 1 Cor 12. Therefore, if the three charisms of the Holy Spirit of 1 Cor 13:8 are "things of the child," then ALL charisms of the Holy Spirit are "things of the child" and have therefore ceased (in your view). Also, 1 Cor 14:20 would then have Paul telling the Corinthians not to participate in revelatory gifts which "were the things of the child", for Paul commands "be not children, but be men" ("teleios" - "perfect"). This verse of 14:20 cannot make sense in your view, for you believe it was good and appropriate to be a "child" unto AD 70. But here, in the early 50s, Paul is telling them to stop being "children." This makes Paul a total babbler and fool for not allowing children to be children during the "child-phase" which was to last up to AD 70. Also, Paul becomes a babbler, for if being a "child" means "reliance on revelatory charisms up to AD 70," then why is Paul telling them to cease being children and become men in the 50s AD while also commanding them to CONTINUE the so-called "revelatory gifts"? This is all internally contradictory, and a failure of logic.

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>>[PV] ..the use of "childish" (and its variants) is PEJORATIVE.... Because of certain erroneous presuppositions you have, you are forced into disparaging as "childish" the revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit. You are belittling the ascension gifts of Jesus Christ as "childish." Paul's use of "child" (and its variants) is pejorative.... Your presuppositional errors predispose you to speak disparagingly of certain charismata. There is no way around this.

>[Green] "Child" (and its variants) is not always pejorative. It is not my position that Paul's use of "child" in I Cor. 3:11 is disparaging or pejorative. It is not my position that the revelatory gifts were themselves childish children. My position is that the "child" was the eschatological Church, while Prophecy and Knowledge were "things of" that child.

[PV] It's untenable. 1 Cor 3:1-4 is clearly an indictment. Also, 1 Cor 14:20 shows Paul asking them to stop being children. Such cannot be made sense of in your interpretive scheme.

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>>>[Green] Are you saying that the "change" that took place at the Parousia had absolutely no existential, experiential effect on the Church on Earth?

>>[PV] ...What does this have to do with our discussion?

>[Green] You appear to be saying that 1 Cor 15:51-52 is teaching a non-experiential, positional, covenantal, "eschatological" change unto consummated eternal life (for the Church on Earth). You have rejected this non-experiential, positional, covenantal, "eschatological" concept as unbiblical when discussing I Cor. 13:10, but you seem to be endorsing it when examining I Cor. 15:51-52.

[PV] Please justify why you are reading 1 Cor 12-14 into 1 Cor 15:51-52 or vice versa. I know of no correlation that can be found in the text itself. I assert you are merely presupposing some connection.

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>>[Green] Using the words of I Cor. 13:9-10, please tell me what, exactly, were said to be "in part" in I Cor. 13:9-10.

[PV] Another paraphrase: "...because we know imperfectly and we prophesy imperfectly. But when perfection comes, imperfection shall be done away...for example, when I physically became a man (perfect), I put away childish things (imperfection)."

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>>>[Green] I didn't mean to suggest that whenever individual Christians became "perfected in love" between 30-70 they stopped receiving revelations.

>>[PV] It would have to mean that. There is no way around it...

>[Green] That would be true if my position was that the personal perfection of individual Christians caused the cessation of the revelatory gifts.

[PV] For you to be consistent or logical, the ones that became "men" (perfect) prior to AD 70 would HAVE to have ceased participation in the revelatory gifts, which were "the child." You are being internally inconsistent.

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>>[Green] My position is that the cause of cessation was the prophecy-fulfilling Parousia of Christ --the Age-changing, Church-changing, Administration-changing Event that consummated the maturity / perfection of the whole Body and brought to realization the "full grown Man" (Eph. 4:13).

[PV] This "cessation" is nowhere taught in scripture.

Are you asserting that Eph 4:13 teaches this cessation? If so, then again you are stuck, for notice that ALL the charisms of Eph 4:8,11-12 are then extinct. And, by parallel mention, the ones of Rom 12:3-8 and 1 Cor 12:28-30 are all extinct too. They are one class. There is no way around this.

Now, If you say that 1 Cor 13:8 teaches this cessation, then I refer you to my list above of six reasons why your view of 1 Cor 13:8 is entirely incorrect to begin with

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